No Addons, Skullcrusher - The First WoW Realm to Ban Addons

[Fanadin]

Hello everyone, for this video I decided to have a discussion with Gummy instead of just narrating.

Addons will be banned on Felmyst's Skullcrusher. 

• When I originally played the game, addons didn't exist, and the experience was far more enjoyable. 
• When they were first introduced they were primitive, but I anticipated them to become more powerful and problematic. 
• For example, before threat meters became common, DPS classes pulling threat on boss fights was a common thing, resulting in a wipe. The meters also allow higher raid DPS.
• Addons simplify the game in a mostly negative fashion. From simple things like bag organizers to large things like UI improvements/threat meters and everything in-between, addons trivialize and ruin multiple aspects of the gaming experience. 
• Addons are essentially automation, and have removed the human element of the game. Players use a pre-determined script to decide what talents to get and what gear to use. On Skullcrusher, the best builds are unknown because of the 2.0 version of WoW. 
• Addons are utilized to gauge player performance and have diminished the social aspect of the game.
• Some of the best items on Skullcrusher (Before T6) must be obtained from Heroic Dungeons.  
• Unlike classic WoW, on Skullcrusher, there will always be something to do instead of raid logging.
• Skullcrusher encourages world interaction and grinding, which encourages world PVP. Excessive gold/EXP gains via dungeons are not possible here like they are on Blizzard's classic servers. 
• Anything important that is not obtainable due to level 60 dungeons not being open, can and likely will be added through other means. 
• Our conviction on this subject has grown stronger over time, due to addons becoming more and more powerful seemingly with each new WoW release. 
• Ultimately, we feel that addons, especially those that exist today, are destroying the game and aren't what the original developers intended. 
• Addons in other competitive games sometimes aren't allowed. 
• The removal of addons will breathe fresh life into the game that even a new version of WoW won't have.  We are excited to see how veteran players handle this new and exciting "version" of WoW. 
• It will be interesting to see how players respond to not having addons. Will they be able to succeed without them in fights like Lady Vashj and Kael'Thas? 
• We will provide more details as to how we will moderate this feature in the near future. 

In addition, you MUST use a normal 2.4.3 client and may not edit it in any way. Doing so will result in disciplinary action. 

If you are unfamiliar with this client, The Burning Crusade has default Raid Frames and every other necessity to beat the game.

As always, I encourage questions and constructive feedback.

Thanks.

[Gr33disgood]

Where to start and where to stop is the right question,

i dont think removing addons is the right step once more.

For example mailbox: If you want to trade with auctionhouse not having mailbox addon and opening every mail manually is not something that will make the game better it just will make you waste time on things you dont enjoy doing.

Searching your inventary for 1 item for many minutes cause you cant find it with a bag addon wont be fun.

No dps meters and Threat meters will also mean you cant see as a raidleader where ppl can improve since this you dont know what casts they are using.

Having no swing timer addon will make melee classes very much worse. 

Many addons were in the Game when classic released. I played tbc with addons cause a friend showed me for example.

I rather have impossible content with addons than possible content but everything feels clunky cause you play a game that was never truely polished.

Healing for example. Will you ban Macros aswell? i can draw out grps at original client and use mouseover makros for them wouldnt be much of a difference to using grid or healbot. Its just a hinderence decreasing player experience. why did omen die after TBC because Blizzard implemented threat in the tooltip in percent.

Want to ban DBM or BigWigs sure makes things harder. But will also cause more frustration for players that are "not so good" that need this helps to be able to do the content like for example accustic notations. These Addons were allrdy there back in the day. 

 

There are many Addons i feel like are necessary for good raiding. Since they offer tools and hints so you dont need to communicate everything.

I think banning addons will make more people stop than stick arround, i was realy hyped for this server and now im considering not playing cause of this announcment i realy dont like it. I dont have time to watch full video but i did read all text. There is nothing to do if there are no people to do stuff with in a mmo just saying

[Thealbida]

What does a bag addon have to do with the social aspect of the game? This is taking your philosophy towards specific addons and clumping them with every other addon that doesn't hinder the experience. You're going to launch a not so very populated server and your social aspect will be absent. 

Another part of the players that this will deter are arena players, where gladdy/sarena have become staple addons. Sure, they can play without them, but guessing or playing timers in your head on top of everything going on, isn't something we want to focus on, just the engagement. 

Definitely should reconsider this, it's quite the mindset of an extremist who demands the game to be played the way YOU want it. That doesn't sit right at all. We thought this was to be played the way we want to but I guess not. Whoever came up with this idea, it's to recreate the feeling they once had when they played, and Blizzard tried that, but you can't. Only difference now, Blizzard didn't dictate how people played. You want it played how it was intended? Look at how WOW was intended to be played, and don't get it confused with how it was played at it's current time.

[Gr33disgood]

1 hour ago, Fanadin said:

Hello everyone, for this video I decided to have a discussion with Gummy instead of just narrating.

Addons will be banned on Felmyst's Skullcrusher. 

I want to answer every point you make with my own words so its more structured than before

• When I originally played the game, addons didn't exist, and the experience was far more enjoyable. 
• That definetly wasnt TBC when you 1st started. I for example was very annoyed by the fact only 1 bag opened if i pressed b cause i didnt know i had to press shift to open all bags for example. Also a big gamechanger for me was Mobmap at that time (vanilla) that only showed location of mobs or lootlocations for the items i need. Because questtext were not very exact back than. You want to make all the quests also remake? or possibly make new game cause ppl Playing this for several Years will know where every quest is. Castbars for Enemys was huge for me since i enjoy pvp to see what spell exactly someone is casting. The bosses in TBC are created to be encounters with Addons since they were a thing in TBC. If you want to change something to make the game harder give us 2.0 Talents and Values of spells cause many of them got buffed during the expansion what makes the content way easier than it was back than.
• When they were first introduced they were primitive, but I anticipated them to become more powerful and problematic. 
• Sure they were primitive, but they were needed and humankind opts for optimisation ist normal addons get better but its not a problem still the clicks have to be made. you could make bosses hit harder and have more dps to adjust to the advancement aswell
• For example, before threat meters became common, DPS classes pulling threat on boss fights was a common thing, resulting in a wipe. The meters also allow higher raid DPS.
• Was it a fun Raidexperience though allways whiping on the same idiots "tank" who does no threat and "dps" who cant control himself. 
• Addons simplify the game in a mostly negative fashion. From simple things like bag organizers to large things like UI improvements/threat meters and everything in-between, addons trivialize and ruin multiple aspects of the gaming experience. 
• most negative is convinience for you? i said enough about that in the part above. Opening Mails and Bags, sorting auction house were definitly not the part of the game i enjoyed the most and im sure many others didnt aswell. 
• Addons are essentially automation, and have removed the human element of the game. Players use a pre-determined script to decide what talents to get and what gear to use. On Skullcrusher, the best builds are unknown because of the 2.0 version of WoW.
• If you bring 2.0 Talents i would be hyped for it i realy like to tinker and try out new builds. I also play often unusual builds. But if i cant check if they are worth it cause no dmg meter would take away much hype 
• Addons are utilized to gauge player performance and have diminished the social aspect of the game.
• What social aspect you talking off? I dont have time to watch combat logs to determine hes good player or not
• Some of the best items on Skullcrusher (Before T6) must be obtained from Heroic Dungeons.  
• im fine with that dont see problem in there
• Unlike classic WoW, on Skullcrusher, there will always be something to do instead of raid logging.
• if you are "raidlogging" you still need a stream of Supplys to do so. No raid will take you if you dont have that
• Skullcrusher encourages world interaction and grinding, which encourages world PVP. Excessive gold/EXP gains via dungeons are not possible here like they are on Blizzard's classic servers. 
• If you realy want to do that you prbly should ban epic flying
• Anything important that is not obtainable due to level 60 dungeons not being open, can and likely will be added through other means. 
• thats also ok with me
• Our conviction on this subject has grown stronger over time, due to addons becoming more and more powerful seemingly with each new WoW release. 
• Yeah but the addons for tbc dont get stronger since i guess this patch allrdy is kinda figured out i play with the same set of addons for the last decade
• Ultimately, we feel that addons, especially those that exist today, are destroying the game and aren't what the original developers intended. 
• The Developers are also only human and make mistakes and players corrected some mistakes by addons.
• Addons in other competitive games sometimes aren't allowed. 
• if its automation in competetive processes obv not.
• The removal of addons will breathe fresh life into the game that even a new version of WoW won't have.  We are excited to see how veteran players handle this new and exciting "version" of WoW. 
• veteran players are used to play with addons they will be fucked up by not beein able to use them and seek for other destinations
• It will be interesting to see how players respond to not having addons. Will they be able to succeed without them in fights like Lady Vashj and Kael'Thas? 
•  
• We will provide more details as to how we will moderate this feature in the near future. 
• for me its not a feature it makes the game just worse and its not optional so i guess i would pass on that feature probably if you cant be convinced. Maybe i lvl but i wont get into any endgame without addons prbly

In addition, you MUST use a normal 2.4.3 client and may not edit it in any way. Doing so will result in disciplinary action.

i guess that means i cant use my graphics mod... 

As always, I encourage questions and constructive feedback.

i hope you also consider changing your point of view because my feeling is in that point you will be standing very alone on that view

Thanks.

 

[bumbaloe]

Interesting choice. With "Classic" players becoming so hooked on things like WeakAuras, and that even being ported back to 2.4.3, it's probably more blizzlike to have no addons than allow that. I wonder if that won't turn off so many players that it becomes difficult to maintain 25 for raiding, though. Will be very fun to play in such conditions IMO. I hope others agree and we are able to form a raid group.

[Fanadin]

Everything you need to play the game already exists within the default UI. This includes default raid frames and enemy cast bars, which work in both PVP and PVE. In terms of needing an addon to evaluate a player, whether they are tank, dps, etc, is the responsibility of raid/guild leadership. Having to sort your inventory is in the basic spirit of the game, as well as going through mail, and creating/managing auctions. In terms of tracking enemy cooldowns as well as your own without an addon, that is also in the basic spirit of the game. If you don't want to do it, you don't have to. Our decision to ban all addons is final. Are some worse than others? Yes, but the point is none are necessary. 

[eunichron]

I generally share the view that add-ons have negatively impacted the game, even that what they have become is not what Blizzard ever intended them to be, but it is patently false that there was a time when add-ons were not supported or used in-game. I played the game during beta and from day one, and some of the earliest add-ons to come out were things like action bars and UI panels or Thottbot plugins that scraped game data. Some of these eventually became full interface mods like CosmosUI, TitanPanels, CT_RaidFrames, AtlasLoot, etc. by the time people were raiding MC.

But you don't have to take my word for it, you only have to look at the 1.2 patch notes that added the AddOns button on the character screen.

[Fanadin]

18 minutes ago, eunichron said:

I generally share the view that add-ons have negatively impacted the game, even that what they have become is not what Blizzard ever intended them to be, but it is patently false that there was a time when add-ons were not supported or used in-game. I played the game during beta and from day one, and some of the earliest add-ons to come out were things like action bars and UI panels or Thottbot plugins that scraped game data. Some of these eventually became full interface mods like CosmosUI, TitanPanels, CT_RaidFrames, AtlasLoot, etc. by the time people were raiding MC.

But you don't have to take my word for it, you only have to look at the 1.2 patch notes that added the AddOns button on the character screen.

Yes you're right, they existed, but in a much less invasive manner, at least from what I remember. Scraping data in any way isn't something I'd want allowed. 

I believe the first addon I ever used was Decursive. 

[zhukpauk]

I am worried a bit about healing, healing raid of 25 or 40peopleAV without at least a clique on default raid frames gonna suck. I guess you can set up these as mouseover macros? Also, default frames I think don't show that a player has some kind of debuff, compared to retail-like default raid frames of classic.

Edited June 14 by zhukpauk

[abap]

Man, I really want this server to succeed, genuinely. I have seen the polish of the server and all the hard work put in. Compared to other pservers and classic, I have never played another server that made me feel like I was playing a faithful recreation of the original game like Felmyst. However, I do feel like this is a step in the wrong direction.

I agree with the sentiment that players are carried by addons. The way WAs play the game for you today is frankly disgusting. If the devs are 100% certain on this decision I would just urge y’all to consider allowing *some* addons. Sure, brick dbm, WAs, even questie. But please consider allowing raid/unit frames addons. Does it really sound like a great idea to force everyone on stock 07 frames when players back then didn’t even do that?

My main concern is that this change will deter newer players from playing at all. I would love to raid here but I am honestly doubtful there will ever be a 25 man raid form. I understand devs can’t control population, but if a healthy server is at all one of your concerns I hope y’all reconsider the extent of this change. Faithful TBC realms are a dying breed, and I would love to see this realm succeed.

My personal opinion is that this sounds like a fun change but I am doubtful there will be 24 other players with as hard of a head as me to fill a raid with.

[Gr33disgood]

3 hours ago, Fanadin said:

 Our decision to ban all addons is final.

its like last time with factionmerge 0 Discussions for feeback from community only dictatorship from above. im still looking for the topic how would you like if we did this.

at least this time i can quit before lvling

and stop talking bs like you want a discussion and feedback

4 hours ago, Thealbida said:

 

Definitely should reconsider this, it's quite the mindset of an extremist who demands the game to be played the way YOU want it. That doesn't sit right at all. We thought this was to be played the way we want to but I guess not. Whoever came up with this idea, it's to recreate the feeling they once had when they played, and Blizzard tried that, but you can't. Only difference now, Blizzard didn't dictate how people played. You want it played how it was intended? Look at how WOW was intended to be played, and don't get it confused with how it was played at it's current time.

this nails it best in my opinion

[Simulacrum]

i smell a bunch of cowards in the chat

[rendkek]

I respect what you guys are trying to do an I myself feel like some addons like weakauras and dbm have gone too far to automate gameplay. I don’t think a blanket addon ban is a good idea though. Some addons have little to no gameplay boosting while others are quality of life improvements that people just don’t want to play without at this point. I really respect the no changes mentality of this server but respectfully think this is a wrong move that will be a detriment to the server population going forward. 

Edited June 14 by rendkek

[Fanadin]

1 hour ago, rendkek said:

I respect what you guys are trying to do an I myself feel like some addons like weakauras and dbm have gone too far to automate gameplay. I don’t think a blanket addon ban is a good idea though. Some addons have little to no gameplay boosting while others are quality of life improvements that people just don’t want to play without at this point. I really respect the no changes mentality of this server but respectfully think this is a wrong move that will be a detriment to the server population going forward. 

I appreciate the honest and constructive feedback and as I've stated, some addons are worse than others. 

Weakauras and dbm are probably the worst of the bunch. 

Other than that, we just want the game to be as pure as possible. 

3 hours ago, zhukpauk said:

I am worried a bit about healing, healing raid of 25 or 40peopleAV without at least a clique on default raid frames gonna suck. I guess you can set up these as mouseover macros? Also, default frames I think don't show that a player has some kind of debuff, compared to retail-like default raid frames of classic.

There are videos on YouTube of people healing TBC raids with default raid frames. No issues whatsoever, works like a champ. 

[Fanadin]

3 hours ago, Gr33disgood said:

its like last time with factionmerge 0 Discussions for feeback from community only dictatorship from above. im still looking for the topic how would you like if we did this.

at least this time i can quit before lvling

and stop talking bs like you want a discussion and feedback

this nails it best in my opinion

How would you like if we did this? What does that even mean? We're providing a FREE TBC server that has thousands of hours invested into making it. I reserve the right to make it how I want it to be. Nobody is forcing you to play, if you don't like it, don't play. No hard feelings. Does that make this a dictatorship? I am flexible on some things, others I'm not. You're free to have your opinion just like I do. 

 

[Trazer]

10 hours ago, Fanadin said:

Our decision to ban all addons is final.

I wanted to make a post about how this is bad idea and give feeback, but considering "this decision is final" I won't waste my time.
gl.

[BecomeApro]

I don't know if you guys have the ability but I wouldn't ban all addons.  Maybe there could be an exception.  I'm sure you could just ban WA/DBM

[Megreda]

I strongly disagree with the decision. First of all, because most addons (like mail, chat, action bar, unit frame, etc, addons) simply make the game nicer to interact with - a direct upgrade, and the game is going to feel quite a bit worse in comparison without them.

Secondly, in terms of authenticity, it's just false that players didn't utilize powerful addons: if you look at 2.0 boss kill videos, players have routinely replaced every aspect of the default UI (indeed, the people's UIs arguably tend to be more cluttered with addons than they would be nowadays, because addons communicating the relevant information more efficiently haven't been invented yet - Grid for instance only arrived during 2.2)

But perhaps even more saliently, the premises and imagined outcomes of the change tend to be wrong. For example, certainly among elite players, you're not really going to have damage-dealers pulling boss threat or even playing conservatively; they'll do whatever it takes to push tank threat above what's required to full nuke, whether it's in form of rotating lusts to the tank group for Void Reaver, or just building more offensively for more standard fights (which is well within possibility because blitzlike pre-nerf values have a lot of leeway for tanks building more offense, perhaps not tanking as fury as in vanilla, but nevertheless). It wasn't a symptom of pre-threatmeter era so much as it was a symptom of bad play(ers). Or what about the best builds being unknown? Don't sell the players too short, or dilemmas presented by vanilla/TBC-era talents too highly: players are going to intuit 20/20/21 build probably isn't good, in fact they'd reliably home in to global optimum due to best practices having rubbed off from decades of optimizing - and that's if the talents were entirely novel, which they aren't. And "the conviction that addons have become more powerful with each subsequent WoW release"? Yeah, duh, but this isn't Wrath or Cata or MoP, but TBC with TBC client, and while there are some backported addons like WeakAuras, their impact in TBC context is mostly to reduce the UI clutter (by for example having an aura triggered to show weapon enchants when they are ABSENT, while during the normal course of the game the enchant is on, and there's no clutter): there just aren't the sort of complex interactions in the game that would necessitate the most powerful programmable features of the auras.

-

Which is kinda the crux of the problem. I personally believe addons (as well as the powerful macro API) in WoW have been a net-positive, precisely on account of mail, chat, action bar, unit frame, etc, addons, that simply make the game nicer (and the functionalities of which Blizzard has slowly adapted into game baseline, while competitors mostly haven't, giving WoW a distinct edge in UX). But that's "on the net" and there's a parallel development of an arms race between player power levels, addon power, and boss design. On one hand,  classes have increasingly received tools like personal defensive and offensive cooldowns, but this has meant that it's no longer enough for a boss to spawn adds that have to be killed quickly (because using personal cooldowns lets you down them ASAP), but it needs to have a SECOND soft enrange mechanic because the first one was trivialized.

Likewise, it's not enough for the boss to do 100% of player-health room wide damage, because everyone just uses their personal cooldowns for that: in order for there to be kill threat, the boss needs to have some other threatening ability, otherwise it's just healers playing an extra round of whack-a-mole. And when you need to keep a track of a dozen instawipe abilities to react with your own, boss mods (and indeed Weakauras with more complex scripts) has have stepped up to make it easier to keep track of, and we arrive at a point where it's not really feasible to do tightly tuned content without addons, so Blizzard compensates by adding obvious targeting circles on the ground (in way that the banned AVRE addon did for Wrath), and at the end of the day the boss fights feel like completely game-y dance floors rather than bosses. The complexity of Mimiron firefighter, I reckon, is roughly the limit of what feels natural (and at the same time, roughly the limit of players can accurately track without aids) - a boss like Ragnaros with legs in turn feels like an arcade-y dance floor.

But crucially, the bad thing has been the co-evolution of addons, class design, and content, not the presence of addons by itself! This is TBC, a known quality. Even if there were no restrictions whatsoever on addons, what's the worst thing that they may cause? Putting a skull on the one guy targeted by arcane orb on Void Reaver so you look for that instead of looking up for the orb (and that's assuming you don't cheese the fight, as is possible in the blitzlike version)? Letting healers see aggro targets in their raid frames so they can start precasting on target affected by Rage Winterchill's forst bolt, rather than the raid cheesing the fight by equipping PvP trinkets (and actually, while the totality of the fight might be easier, preactive healing allowed by being vigilant like that is more skillful than simply playing whack-a-mole... in fact a lot of "ease" enabled by the more advanced addons is of that form: communicating more information so you can make skillful plays based on that information)? That makes the fight marginally easier but is ultimately kinda whatever. In the perfect world I wouldn't have skulls on top of people's heads, but that's not a major problem (the radar addon for Mythic Archimonde is, or more specifically, that such a thing could even be contemplated as a result of the arms race leading to greater complexity).

-

There's one implementation of no-addon policy I would consider sensible: a package of built-in addons that roughly replicate the QOL that you would have come to expect, kinda like contemporary WoW default UI (and what Simulacrum above me suggested). Otherwise it seems like almost pure downside, seeing as the upside in static TBC context is so limited.

Edited June 15 by Megreda

[Flemyst]

11 hours ago, Fanadin said:

We're providing a FREE TBC server that has thousands of hours invested into making it. I reserve the right to make it how I want it to be. 

None of it would be possible without the thousands of hours play testers put into this server. 

[Fanadin]

9 hours ago, Simulacrum said:

Suggested default addons:

- Threat indicator that has two out puts; 'safe' when below x% threat and 'unsafe' when above x% threat. This means you can't 'maximise' your dps, but you aren't blind also.

I am against any sort of threat meter which we discuss in the video, starting at about 1:20.

That's part of tanking, and part of being a dps class. You have to have a "feel" for what is happening if you want to be successful. 

[Simulacrum]

39 minutes ago, Fanadin said:

I am against any sort of threat meter which we discuss in the video, starting at about 1:20.

That's part of tanking, and part of being a dps class. You have to have a "feel" for what is happening if you want to be successful. 

You need to have a 'feel' for what's happening if you want your sever to be successful.

[Fanadin]

41 minutes ago, Simulacrum said:

You need to have a 'feel' for what's happening if you want your sever to be successful.

Not worried about a thing bro. Feeling really good . 

[Thealbida]

23 hours ago, Fanadin said:

Everything you need to play the game already exists within the default UI. This includes default raid frames and enemy cast bars, which work in both PVP and PVE. In terms of needing an addon to evaluate a player, whether they are tank, dps, etc, is the responsibility of raid/guild leadership. Having to sort your inventory is in the basic spirit of the game, as well as going through mail, and creating/managing auctions. In terms of tracking enemy cooldowns as well as your own without an addon, that is also in the basic spirit of the game. If you don't want to do it, you don't have to. Our decision to ban all addons is final. Are some worse than others? Yes, but the point is none are necessary. 

You should probably let it be known in the beginning of this post that feedback and discussions will not deter the addon ban nor will debate/compromise will be taken instead of "As always, I encourage questions and constructive feedback." because making a decision that no one here has a say in hope to sway what's best and work together is absolute under such dictatorship management. You could of been honest from the get go, especially not being a community driven person, you would've had much more respect but every saying its "final" contradicts what you "encourage". I should also be specific, DBM/WA/questie and anything that plays/alerts for you hinders gameplay. It is possible to allow some addons. In your video you mentioned the detect addon that alerts even stealthed rogues and other nearby but did not mention it got patched. A list of allowed addons is all really anyone here is asking for.

Again, just be straight honest that what you say goes, and community feedback is of no importance to your decision making. It's unfortunate too, for someone who wishes to stick to their guns about the spirit of nostalgia and yet, the forums doesn't have that spirit.

[Gummy]

I sympathize with the sentiment, but one of the purposes of new management is to ensure better stability and avoid caving to pressure, as I have done in the past. Last year, for example, I gave in to many demands, leading to changes and boosts that contradicted the project's purpose. I understand that many players today are moving away from traditional ways and dislike ideas that contradict modern playstyles, but that is also part of why Fanadin is here. Although it is ultimately not up to me, I happen to agree with this direction. It just sounds more fun than more of the same.

From a technical standpoint, it's not as clear-cut as one might think. Addons run code, which means any addon can be edited in numerous ways to transform one "Addon" into another "Addon." With enough effort, you could transform a bag addon into something akin to Weak Auras.

I find the feedback useful because it highlights what players may not be aware of. For example, it's surprising that many don't know that TBC has default raid frames. I also expected more players to understand the technical aspects of addons, but as a developer, I realize this expectation may have been influenced by my own bias.

[Thealbida]

38 minutes ago, Gummy said:

I sympathize with the sentiment, but one of the purposes of new management is to ensure better stability and avoid caving to pressure, as I have done in the past. Last year, for example, I gave in to many demands, leading to changes and boosts that contradicted the project's purpose. I understand that many players today are moving away from traditional ways and dislike ideas that contradict modern playstyles, but that is also part of why Fanadin is here. Although it is ultimately not up to me, I happen to agree with this direction. It just sounds more fun than more of the same.

From a technical standpoint, it's not as clear-cut as one might think. Addons run code, which means any addon can be edited in numerous ways to transform one "Addon" into another "Addon." With enough effort, you could transform a bag addon into something akin to Weak Auras.

I find the feedback useful because it highlights what players may not be aware of. For example, it's surprising that many don't know that TBC has default raid frames. I also expected more players to understand the technical aspects of addons, but as a developer, I realize this expectation may have been influenced by my own bias.

Thanks for the reply Gummy! I should've also preface that an addonless adventure does sound appealing and could be fun. And wow, I guess it would be asking too much to be on the constant fight of banning addons modified from allowed addons. Let us hope everyone can see pass addons, who knows how it will feel. 

[Gr33disgood]

3 hours ago, Gummy said:

I sympathize with the sentiment, but one of the purposes of new management is to ensure better stability and avoid caving to pressure, as I have done in the past. Last year, for example, I gave in to many demands, leading to changes and boosts that contradicted the project's purpose. I understand that many players today are moving away from traditional ways and dislike ideas that contradict modern playstyles, but that is also part of why Fanadin is here. Although it is ultimately not up to me, I happen to agree with this direction. It just sounds more fun than more of the same.

From a technical standpoint, it's not as clear-cut as one might think. Addons run code, which means any addon can be edited in numerous ways to transform one "Addon" into another "Addon." With enough effort, you could transform a bag addon into something akin to Weak Auras.

I find the feedback useful because it highlights what players may not be aware of. For example, it's surprising that many don't know that TBC has default raid frames. I also expected more players to understand the technical aspects of addons, but as a developer, I realize this expectation may have been influenced by my own bias.

Hey Gummy,

in my Opinion last felmyst didnt fail cause you listen to community. it failed cause you only listend to the most vocal part of community and acted very rushed and not well thought out.

For Example if i was the Leading staff on last Felmyst iteration before i implement something like the Faction merge

I would make a Forum Thread make Discussion/Brainstorming with all the community make a voting and than maybe implement some fixes or leave it.

But i realy dont enjoy having no say in anything or at least have a discussion about things like this no addon thing. You dont even know if people will like it who want to play on your server. World of Warcraft was intendet as a MMO with a population of around 2k players per server to be very high frequented. If you deterr players from playing here with enforcing unpopular decisions and not having a Discussion about it before implementing Changes like this no addon now or faction merge before it will make the feeling of World of Warcraft not better it will only worsen the feeling if you struggle to find dungeon grps or struggle to fill a 25 man with a good setup. Like i said before i was realy hyped to start here with my Guild but this announcment and treatment doesnt sit right for me.

I still hope i can change your point of view but i feel like fighting windmills.

[romi]

Huge win guys, I have a (kinda stupid) question, will I be able to play with the existing TBC client downloaded from Felmyst web site?

P.S. ban macros too

[romi]

11 hours ago, Gr33disgood said:

Hey Gummy,

in my Opinion last felmyst didnt fail cause you listen to community. it failed cause you only listend to the most vocal part of community and acted very rushed and not well thought out.

For Example if i was the Leading staff on last Felmyst iteration before i implement something like the Faction merge

I would make a Forum Thread make Discussion/Brainstorming with all the community make a voting and than maybe implement some fixes or leave it.

But i realy dont enjoy having no say in anything or at least have a discussion about things like this no addon thing. You dont even know if people will like it who want to play on your server. World of Warcraft was intendet as a MMO with a population of around 2k players per server to be very high frequented. If you deterr players from playing here with enforcing unpopular decisions and not having a Discussion about it before implementing Changes like this no addon now or faction merge before it will make the feeling of World of Warcraft not better it will only worsen the feeling if you struggle to find dungeon grps or struggle to fill a 25 man with a good setup. Like i said before i was realy hyped to start here with my Guild but this announcment and treatment doesnt sit right for me.

I still hope i can change your point of view but i feel like fighting windmills.

just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it's unpopular decision, I guess we'll have to wait and see how popular it is once the server goes live

Edited June 16 by romi

[Chayim]

Love having no add-ons, been waiting YEARS for someone to do this and just keep cooking. The wow community and its game has changed so much over the years that it's become a simulation more than a game literally. There's plenty of simulation servers they can play, when they want to play an actual game like some of us, this server will be there. 

[Fanadin]

14 hours ago, romi said:

Huge win guys, I have a (kinda stupid) question, will I be able to play with the existing TBC client downloaded from Felmyst web site?

P.S. ban macros too

You will be able to use your existing client assuming you got it from our website. 

The link our website provides is an original World of Warcraft 2.4.3.8606 enUS client without any additional files or folders. Modified clients are not allowed.

[Geology]

20 minutes ago, Fanadin said:

You will be able to use your existing client assuming you got it from our website. 

The link our website provides is an original World of Warcraft 2.4.3.8606 enUS client without any additional files or folders. Modified clients are not allowed.

Is there a way to determine if the client we're using is stock? I've been using an old Henhouse Smolderforge client, since, forever ago.

Edited June 16 by Geology

[karakedi]

I wonder how will the players be able to manage threat issue in raids. Can someone explain pls?

As we wil all agree, TBC is too much threat sensitive expansion. I never played this game without threat meter or dps meter. 

Will it be fun for 24 other people to keep running everytime a dps does small, tiny overagro and rebuff for minutes and redo the fight again? Yes 20 years ago, you played this game without a TM but are you really sure whether new generation will have the patience to keep running boss all pver again at each time a dps overagroes and wipes the raid? Especially in buffed content where you also have to dps race before enrage timer or adds become a critical issue before phase change?

And how will raid leaders be able to analyse who is good dps and bad, or whether a prot warrior does correct rotation without a dps meter?

Lets say you wiped due to an overagro. Who knows whether it was a tank threat generation rotation issue or a simple dps overagroing?

In practice will it be fun for players to do uncertain experiments in lets say SSC for 3-4 hours and you end up with not being able to kill Hydross and go back home with only Lurker loot? And you experience same result for consequtive weeks too?

I was following Felymst for a good while. Previous realms were dead. But this one seems to born death as well. I will just wait and see. If it seems working I can start, otherwise will be watching in bench. 

So, if someone can explain pls. How will raid leaders and raiders sort out threat issue without Threatmeter and dps meter?

I may agree with WA. Even banning raidframe addons will make everything super difficult. But how people will overcome the threat issue. I dont understand. 

[karakedi]

If you think about it. It will be so catastrphic e perience. No raid frame, no mouseover macro, no clique. Even the paladin buffs will be pain in the ass. Not everyone plays tbc is 1000% min-maxer who can do his pala buff correctly and on time without pally power.

Uff. People will be standing in front of the boss. Yelling each others that that they need salvation. Paladins wont do it. Raid leader will feel frustrated. Ppl will be keep yelling to gogo start the fighr. Dps will pull agro cuz paladins dont do salv cuz pally power is banned.

Raid will wipe in a minute. You will run for 10minutes. Rebuff, yells, shouts, wrong buffs and redo again, yells again for 15minutes. After 30minutes you do new pull and wipe after a minute again.

I just dont understand what enjoyment will this frustration bring to the game. Why?

[Fanadin]

2 hours ago, Geology said:

Is there a way to determine if the client we're using is stock? I've been using an old Henhouse Smolderforge client, since, forever ago.

I would just download a new copy from our website. 

29 minutes ago, karakedi said:

No raid frame, no mouseover macro

The Burning Crusade has default Raid Frames.

[Azo]

Saw this idea get tossed on reddit. Wanted to show my support for the idea. I know there are sweatlords in here that are crying about their dps meters, but for me, this makes a lot of sense and should have been done a long time ago. I think it will bring in a nice change of pace to the game. The sweatlords/pumpers/etc. can go back to retail or whatever the hell version of the game they want since there are literally tons of options except for something like what Gummy is proposing. That in of its self appears to be the right mindset to have. I think this will bring in a healthier player base that isn't obssessed with endgame content.

Edited June 17 by Azo

[Thealbida]

3 hours ago, Azo said:

Saw this idea get tossed on reddit. Wanted to show my support for the idea. I know there are sweatlords in here that are crying about their dps meters, but for me, this makes a lot of sense and should have been done a long time ago. I think it will bring in a nice change of pace to the game. The sweatlords/pumpers/etc. can go back to retail or whatever the hell version of the game they want since there are literally tons of options except for something like what Gummy is proposing. That in of its self appears to be the right mindset to have. I think this will bring in a healthier player base that isn't obssessed with endgame content.

I haven't seen one person express their want to parse or minmax, care to point them out? Some, including me, suggested to allow some (while opposing WA/DBM and anything that plays for you). Silly to lump people who want like a bag addon to you're accusing of everyone here to being parsers/minmax addon fiends.

[Lazarix]

I want to ask, how addon detection will be handled? I know devs don't want to spoil specifics, neither do i want to give out ideas but IIRC persistence of addon data is not handled server side. Will there be some sort of server side anti cheat or RAM scans?

[Pindasaus]

when does the server opens up? I cant find anything about it

[Lazarix]

49 minutes ago, Pindasaus said:

when does the server opens up? I cant find anything about it

felmyst3 released on july 21st
i'd expect felmyst 4 to release between july 21st-6th august 

[Searcher]

Does the game record any metadata when we submit bug reports using the in game tool? For example, without addons we wont be able to easily determine our in game location to provide that when it may be relevant to a report.

Also, are bug fixes shared across the archive server, Felmyst 3 and Skullcrusher? I ask because if I run into bugs on 3, I'm wondering if I should bother reporting.

[Fanadin]

17 hours ago, Searcher said:

Does the game record any metadata when we submit bug reports using the in game tool? For example, without addons we wont be able to easily determine our in game location to provide that when it may be relevant to a report.

Also, are bug fixes shared across the archive server, Felmyst 3 and Skullcrusher? I ask because if I run into bugs on 3, I'm wondering if I should bother reporting.

Yes - However, more information from the user is usually beneficial.

And yes, the bug fixes are shared between both servers. 

Edit: I'd like this thread to remain on topic. In the future please create new threads for topics that are unrelated to the original topic of said thread. For clarification, bug REPORTS are shared between both servers right now.

[WhiteGrey]

Hello,

Sounds like a novel idea. I hope it works out. I want it to work out! I would hope this sort of change cripples the "competitive race" aspect of the game today via obfuscation. Surely no one cares about my opinion, but I'll try it out, and hopefully it's a world I can adventure in without persistent outside interference while still feeling connected to other players within the context of the game. If nothing else, I respect your attempt. Thanks for that.

[Thalric]

I for one think this is super cool and I am excited to play.